I dont get Michis ladder. Sweet potatoes and brown rice at the top? Yes these are good for you but they are also starchy so why top rung?
And why is crab so far down? Is it due to possible contamination from the water. If so that applies to any fish.
Please explain????

GREAT POST, Caroline.

I always get confused, though. What do you multiply the 13 by to lose body fat. The weight you are now or the weight you want to be??

If you want to lose, say 100 pounds, do you pick a midpoint weight or something like that??

Thanks,
John

Caroline - Great job!

Crabs are bottom feeders, like many shellfish, which means they are the filters of the ocean. It also means they collect a lot of nasty junk in their systems.

Most fish don't have that problem.

That and the fried thing should explain why they're so low on ladder, along with clams.

Oysters don't seem to collect toxins the way clams do and people often eat them raw, which would explain why they are higher on the ladder.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Peas are on the top tier also and they are very starchy.
I know these foods are good for you but seems like they should be in the eat moderately more so than at the top due to the starches.

Fitbabe-

What's great about these boards is that they allow for all different opinions. That's how we can improve Beachbody and Michi's Ladder.

I'd be interested in learning more about your negative reaction to starch, especially in peas.

What are you basing this on?

Although Caroline stated it above, I wanted to make sure that Fitbabe understands that starch is another word for complex carbohydrates. I should have stated that plainly earlier.

Well I read FIGHT FAT AFTER FOURTY and the author Dr. Pamela Peeke says that women do NOT need dense carbs in the evening like peas and potatos etc. Cus they do not need the energy source. A tiny amount is ok and more earlier in the day is fine.

What is Michi's ladder based on anyway. I mean who came up with it and what are their credentials?
I am just curious as I am surprised by the position of some of the food items.

Fitbabe,

Based on your latest post, it appears that you haven't read Carolines posts, or don't agree with her. None of the foods you mentioned belong in lower tiers in my opinion and Caroline does an excellent job of explaining why they belong at the top. Nothing that Dr. Peeke said contradicts what Caroline said. I think it is a good idea to limit all types of food at night period. We don't need the energy to sleep that we need to get through the day, and especially our workouts.

Don't analyze this stuff to death and lose sight of the objective. Remember - the bottom line is that if we consume fewer calories than we burn, we will lose weight. Enjoy a variety of all the good food in the top tiers and you will be satisified, have the energy to do intense workouts and reduce body fat.

Jim

Well also I guess when I look at the ladder I am assuming that I should select from the top tier as often as possible.
I am not contesting the need for starches. But it would seem that since peas and sweet potatos are so starchy that they would be in a lower tier to be reached for occasionally.
Yes Dr. Peeke says we need those complex starches, but not in the late evening.
And in moderation during the day. So when I look at the ladder I just think that the top tier should have food items that could be reached for numerous times throughout the day like lettuce or brocoli..
Thats where my thought was.
I do appreciate your explaining why its sometimes best to reach for that starchy carb. I hadn't thought of it that way.
I am wondering how the ladder was developed and who developed it.
I still think it needs refinement.

I think you are trying to use the ladder in a way that it is not intended. It is not like the Food Pyramid where it is implied that the food at the base of the pyramid should make up most of the food you eat throughtout the day. By the way, you would object to the Food Pyarmid too because it would have things like brown rice at the base. Michi's ladder tiers do not imply quantities of food. For example, olive oil is in tier one. It should be in my opinion, but if you drink a cup of it for breakfast in the morning you aren't going to lose weight.

The tiers could be revamped using different criteria and if you got a room full of nutritional experts they might come out with a revised ladder after a decade or so and I would bet that 99% of the food in the top three tiers would remain in the top three tiers and that includes brown rice, peas and sweet potatoes. I say if it ain't broke....don't fix it. What is more imporant than what foods go into the tiers is to get the right balance of nutrients (Carbs, Fat, Protein) and amount of calories. That is how you can determine how MUCH of that good food to eat. Picking these foods from the top three tiers is a winning strategy. A great tool to supplement Michi's ladder is www.fitday.com.
Jim

Hi! Welcome aboard Isabelle and Dennis. I work for Weight Watchers and for the most part ate healthly most my life. I love fruits and veggies. Don't care much for red meat. So my protein is usually fish,turkey ,chicken,nuts or peanut butter (small amounts). My basic belive is there really is'nt bad foods. If people would
do them in moderation. I mean of course an apple versus a doughnut is a better choice. I think however if you want a doughnut once in a blue moon have it. But stop at one not a dozen. I know muscle weighs more than fat. A trannier once explained it this way. If you think of a pound of fat as feathers and a pound of muscle as lead the muscle is much more condensed. I understand all this. My question ? I have gained about 5 pounds. In the past year. I know this is muscle my cloths fit better and I'm fine with that. I also know that mucsle burns more calories than fat. So if I have increased my activity and I'm still eating 1,500 caloris. Why wouldn't I take this 5 pounds off? I'm 5'5 140. I was staying between 130-135 for years. Please any in put will be appreciated. Thank you!
WWG

My P90 was shipped on the 7th so I'm still waiting for it. I have heard alot about Michi's Ladder and am wondering if this will come with P90 as I can't find any specifics about it elsewhere.

Points well taken James. Yes I guess I was looking at it like the food pyramid (which I dont agree with either)
I was thinking ok I am too choose these most often and frequently.
I will try to view it differently.

TN Trooper you copy of THE WAY aka MICHI'S LADDER comes with P90

Lee

Caroline. Jim. Nice job, as usual. Very informative thread.

To give you a simple answer, Michi's Ladder is not a diet, it is simply a partial list of food choices. Like Jim said, what is most important is eating the right foods in the proper proportions of carbs, proteins, and fats. You could eat entirely off of tier one and have a terrible diet if you didn't consider the nutrient make-up of the foods you were eating. The rather simple idea on creating Michi's was to give people SOME IDEA of which foods may be better when they were choosing between like foods, and that's all. It's not a diet. It's to give you a guide when choosing between, say, cold water fish or crab, or olive oil vs coconut oil. I think Jim's olive oil example probably cleared this up for you.

I could add some more techinicalities but will keep them to need to know, since this thread is quite thorough already. Let us know if you're still confused on the subject.

Cheers,

steve

wwg,

The feathers/lead analogy is a bit inflated. Fat weighs something and it's probably closer to a 2 to 1 trade off. I do know a woman that gained 15 pounds of muscle and dropped 4 dress sizes, but that's an extreme example.

Anyway, yes, your thinking is correct. However, if it's not working than you need to explore some other things. It's possible, depending on your exercise level, that you are eating too little. It's also possible that you are eating too much and adding cals wrong (1,500 is not excessive). The most likely thing to help would be to make a major alteration in your diet. If you eat a standard ratio of carbs, proteins, and fats, you might benefit from a short cycle of higher protein, maybe a 55% protein, 25% fats, 20% carbs for a few weeks. Limit starchy carbs for this duration, then begin to add them back in balancing your diet closer 40/30/30. If you continue to be active and exercise, I think a 45(carb)/30(p)/25(f) with occasional flip-flop of fat/protein to be a good general diet. Added exercise would mean added carbs, mainly from complex sources and fruit, and eliminating processed foods and sugars whenever possible.

I wanted to know why the choices were made for each tier so I can apply the knowledge to other foods.

It makes no sense to me that say tomatoes are on tier 2 BUT "tomatoe products" are on tier 1
Or even that they are on tier 2 with all the nutrients and lack of starch they have and peas are on tier 1.

So yep I want to know how it was decided what went where and who decided it?
I am just curious what their qualifications are ..? Did a nutritionist develop it or did the folks at BB decide based on their experience?

The statement below is a quite from the fitness staff:

"Fitbabe-

What's great about these boards is that they allow for all different opinions. That's how we can improve Beachbody and Michi's Ladder."

From what I've been seeing lately, this isn't true at Beachbody right now. I've been criticized for my low-carb way of eating, even though it works great for me and I know several people who have incorporated this into their normal way of eating and have kept off lost pounds for years. It's not a diet, but a way of life.

I just discovered this thread and it almost seems like a couple of people are posing some really great and informative questions about Michi's ladder, and the answers they are getting are not totally supportive.

The question concerning who came up with this ladder still hasn't been answered. I've been trying to figure out since I received my materials in March where this plan came from and who designed it.

If your quote stated above is true, then please start being supportive of the customers who chose to follow a different way of eating.

Betsy

Wow Caroline you certainly know your stuff!

I think a point Music Teacher was making is we are not saying that Michi's ladder is a bad plan for some we are just curious about how it was developed.

Did a nutritionist develop it? Or did the folks at Beach Body put it together?

I see black coffee on tier 2 and I am just curious at who made these decisions and why.

Fitbabe -

I'm a little baffled at your distaste for the ladder.

It was developed by "the folks at Beach Body" working with nutritionists and from life experience. Although you don't really need a nutritionist to see the common sense of the list.

Tomato sauces, for some reason, contain more lycopene than just plain tomatos. Lycopene), the pigment that gives them their red color. Lycopene is a carotenoid and has powerful antioxidant properties.

Next, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH PEAS. Not only are they an excellent source of carbs, they also contain heaps of protein, something lacking in many diets. They are full of fiber. One cup of peas offers 97% your rda for vitamin C along with lesser amounts of several other vitamins and minerals.

Finally, coffee -- without cream and sugar - is a great antioxident. Caffeine isn't that bad for you. Steve is a huge coffee proponant. If you want to discuss this one, I'll hand you off to him.

Betsy,

I like that quote you posted from Beachbody. Yes, we all can post our opinions. However, because I have an opinion that differs from yours doesn't make me unsupportive. Frankly, I am surprised that you, as a diabetic, would view the information that I posted on how high fat/protein diets can be harmful to diabetics health as unsupportive. I am not in here trying to win a debate...I truly care about peoples' health, devote most of my free time to it and have made an enormous impact on many people's lives. I don't usually go around tooting my own horn either, but to be called unsupportive is truly mind boggling. Enough of that.

I am convinced that low carb/high fat diets are unhealthy and will lead to weight regains as it has for so many people I know and so many people on these boards that have tried the low carb route and are now giving the Beachbody lifestyle a try (which is not low carb).

A low carb, high fat/protein diet may be dangerous for diabetics and is contrary to advice from the majority of the medical community and the guidance provided by the American Diabetes Association (ADA)which recommends that you get 50% of your calories from carbohydrates.

http://www.diabetes.org

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=1330

The National Weight Control Registry tracked over 3000 people that lost an averge of 60 lbs and were able to keep the weight off for more than 5 years. The purpose of the study was to determine what made these people different from the majority of the people that lost considerable weight, but gained most of it back within 2 years. This is what those that succeeded in long term weight loss did:

1. They accepted failure and kept on trying.

2. They did not deny themselves--they indulged from time to time.

3. They weighed themselves often (for maintenance, not during weight loss).

4. They exercised one hour a day.

5. They added little bits of activity into their daily life.

6. They followed a high carbohydrate and low fat diet.

7. They ate 5 meals a day

Sounds like a winning strategy to me.

I think that Fitbabes questions on the ladder were excellent because they lead to a better understanding of how the ladder should be used and more important, how it should not be used. I think what Caroline says hits the nail on the head:

"....it's all about common sense. Follow a healthy balanced diet of protein, beans, legumes, whole grains, fruits and vegetables, restrict junk food and sugars to a minimum, exercise, drink your water, don't eat too many calories and trust me, you can't go wrong."

Jim

I am not expressing dislike for the ladder.

I just didnt get why some of the choices were made.

As an educator I prefer to know the details about what I am doing and why ..not just go along and do it.

Well you have explained it pretty well.
Thanks

Am off to get some peas for lunch!

Seriously I have been so nailed with the high fat, high protein, low carb diet that I have been viewing starchy foods as the enemy.

Obviously I need to rethink these foods.

Thanks all for your careful explanations.

Lee