Well I'm new to P90. I've done the low fat diets, the shakes, counting calories and even weight watchers counting points. All this diets always left me hungry(very hungry).

I ate several small meals a day and I would loose a few lbs here and there but gained everything back right away and sometimes even more.

My doctor told me that my blood preasure was high, cholestral was also high and close to being diabetic I need to loose weight. Like I said before I've tried everything that people would suggest. Two co-workers started the Atkins diet and right away you noticed a difference.

I decided to start the diet myself two months ago. I weight 260 lbs and after two months I've lost 25 lbs. Went back to see my doctor He could not believe my tests results. Everything from my cholestral to my blood preassure has gone down to almost normal. I explained to him what I was doing and he said continue doing it. This was the only diet I have ever used that left me satisfied and still lost weight. steaks, chicken, fish vegetables great stuff. While my friend eats his small portions counting calories I eat a large steak and vegtables. He can't believe I eat the amount I do and still loose weight.

The only thing that was missing was a good excercise program So, I purchased P90. But, after reading some of the comments that the Advise staff were saying about low carbs, I was getting discouraged. Because with low carbs I'm healthier then I was two months ago. Except that I realised that I needed a good excersice program. So I picked P90.

The key word is low carbs not NO carbs. It's like everything else theres bad carbs and good carbs. Vegtables are great for your carb intake.

But thanks to billthom I will stick to my low carb eating and see if P90 will give me the fitness that I believe it will.

Question to billthom, are you taking the creatine and if you are how are you managing the high carb intake of the juice. I know regular grape juice is about 84g of carbs for a 16oz glass. I don't know if the Ocean Spray light cran-grape juice that only has 20g of carbs will work with the creatine. If you can let me know. I've seen your pictures and your results are very impressive.

my email bigben@mybeachbody.com

thanks

[This message was edited by BigBen on 07-10-03 at 12:20 PM.]

You do what you think is best.

I assume you're talking about this thread.

http://forums.beachbody.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=528299664&f=338299664&m=5352979317&r=5892992327#5892992327

I suggest before you take billthom's word as gospel, you also take a hard look at what Jim had to say in response. I also suggest you read the artcles referenced in the start of that thread.

Well I read james responds. By his answers his actually doing exactly the atkins program his doing the lifetime maintenance were you do increase your carb intake and continue with an excercise program. From his diet it sound exactly the same.

I went to earlier treads and articles and the advice staff treads mentioned that You cannot exercise hard on 20grams of carbs per day. obcourse not, that's not what atkins is all about. 20 carbs a day is only done for the first two weeks then you increase your carbs. It depends on the individual. There some people that live with 50 carbs like james and there's other people that go over 100 carbs as long as they know when they reach their plato. For one to say that you live off "mostly meats, cheese and eggs" really did not read the atkins book. You also eat vegtables and fruits after the first two weeks. I do and I'm still loosing weight. One really is cutting out the bad carbs that come from flour, rice and a lot of sugar(regular sodas). If one starts an excercise program obcourse atkins dieters do increase their carb intake. One has to adjust their carbs. I was taking in 35 carbs a day because I've been loosing weight and now I have increased it to 45 to 55 a day. Because I Just started doing the P90. I might later on increase it or decrease it depending on my energy and other factors.

Just remember 20 carbs is ONLY for two weeks. After that one actually increases carb intake including vegetables and fruits. It all depends on the individual.

After my doctor saw that my cholestral and blood preasure went down he recommended me to continue doing exactly what I was doing and eventually start an excercise program. That's why I started P90.

Like I said, you do what you think is best. I hope it works out.

One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that there's nothing "bad" about whole grains and brown rice. Wonderbread and White rice, sure, but the complex carbs that come from whole grains and rice and very good for you -- not to mention the fiber. Billthom concedes to that.

You understand that, right?

And then there's the bacon issue, which I don't even want to get started on.

I undertand. One could actually eat brown rice and grains they could eat anything they really want. Just have to get to the point you count the carbs one eats. I even have a beer here and there. I just know that a regular beer is 12g of carbs and a Michelob Ultra is just 2.4g. Today I could eat a nice big steak or fish and have some brown rice with it. The only thing I need to do is count 20g carbs for the brown rice. Fits perfectly well in my carb limit. Bacon what do you have to say about bacon. Everyone that has not really read the atkins book thinks they have to eat bacon to loose weight. You don't many people actually hate bacon and it doesn't have to be included. My wife is a vegetarian and she goes to curves wich is a female only gym. She like the one on one help from the people at that gym. She filled out a test three weeks ago that actually determines if you are carb dependant or calorie dependant. It turn out that the nutritianalist said that she was carb dependant. She recommended going on a low carb diet. Her recommendation was to eat tofu instead of meat and plenty of vegetables.

Why does everyone think eggs and bacon every time one thinks about atkins. Forget about the bacon one does not need to eat if they don't like it. I personnaly love bacon.

I'd agree that you should continue along your path. You'll know when it's time to change. Certainly, that type of dieting is effective at certain times, but Atkins maintenance is still not a well-rounded diet, not even close. But if you lifestyle becomes healthier you will naturally move beyond it. No worries for the momemnt (I'm pretty sure Jim eats more than 50g of carbs, if that's what you meant)

Check this out:

http://forums.beachbody.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=528299664&f=8682956296&m=4542931417

and probably this:

http://forums.beachbody.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=528299664&f=8682956296&m=9072921907

Fitness Advisor

Thanks, personally I don't have anything against michi's ladder (low calories). It's great that it works for many people but at the same time I know it does not work for me and many other people I know. I figure I'm carb dependant and that's were most of my weight came from especially when I evaluated my eating habits. Don't tend to really eat a lot just a lot of carbs in my life. I think that I am eating healthy at this point. I'm eating more vegetables then I have ever ate in my entire life and I do plan on increasing my carbs that's what the life plan is all about. meats vegetables fruits all healthy. Rice grains it all could eventually be added and used. In the long run I don't want to ever start drinking regular sodas anymore plus at this point I hate the taste took a sip a few weeks ago and it was discusting to much sugar did not taste good at all. All my sugar craving are gone. I think one could really make it into a really healthy experience. But like anything else just need to take it one step at a time. If I start suffering from this diet I will need to adjust and will increase my carb intake. I need to keep an eye on my body and make adjustments.

Ben, it sounds like you have a sound understanding of a low-carb way of eating. It's great that after so many years that Dr. Atkins took verbal abuse because of his theories, the medical community is finally starting to realize that he had some great ideas. My mother is a diabetic, and finally her doctors and nutritionalist are starting to accept the idea that high carbohydrates are not good for diabetics. My mother is finally starting to incorporate low-carb into her way of eating and it is really working in controlling her blood sugar.

I have found for the most part that us "low-carbers" were accepted in the beach body community. Lately I feel that they are really trying to knock us down. I have never done anything to criticize the ladder that came with my materials. I know that it's not for me, and I know that low-carb works great for me. It would be nice to get the same courtesy from them as we have given.

The other thread was going great until James started criticizing our way of eating. I don't criticize his knowledge or his beliefs and don't need to be cut down for mine. I don't think I'll be posting anymore over there because it's obviously not a low-carb thread anymore.

You have a great understanding of low-carb. It's not all steak, eggs, cheese, and bacon. I eat lots and lots of vegetables and even eat some fruit. I know the carb level that I will start gaining weight at. You're right. The 20 carb limit is for 2 weeks. After that, you are to start increasing it by 5 carbs, until you find that critical level, where you go from losing, to maintaining, to gaining. For some people that might be 50 carbs. For others, maybe around 100. It's a personal thing.

Gee, if low-carb controls my blood sugar, gets rid of sugar cravings, and makes my cholesterol go down, I think I'll keep doing it, don't you think???

Nice to see you here, Ben.

Betsy

Ben -

We're just going in circles. Every point you have has been addressed in the articles and threads listed above.

Betsy -

You make it sound like you're being persecuted or something!

There's something you both have to remember. Beachbody is about nutrition and fitness. We have a philosophy. When people come to us for help, we espouse that philosophy, which includes a balance 40-30-30 diet. It's the entire reason we are here. We simply do not believe in Atkins or any other low carb diet. Getting upset because low carb diets aren't accepted by the Beach Body staff on Beach Body boards is like a German going to France and being upset because they don't serve brautwurst!

I don't mind debating with you about it. In fact, I think it makes the boards all the better. People like you and James are among our best assets. I hope you continue to post because you give the boards a whole different dimension. We challenge each others beliefs. Jim can be a bit of a pitbull at times (oh boy, I'm in for it now! ), but he's a heck of an adversary and a great debater. It would be a shame if you two stopped locking horns.

I want you to do what you want to do. It's your body. I say that all the time. But when you espouse it to the Beachbody community, we're going to challenge you. I'm here to give people advice and I cannot give advice I do not believe in.

Please don't take it personally. No one here, including Jim, is out to get you. In fact, if I ever meet you face-to-face, I'll be the first to buy the beer -- I'll even make yours Michelob Ultra.

OK Denis..you are in trouble now! You are right - I do try to shake things up and sometimes being a pitbull is effective as I believe it has been in this case. People are learning from this debate and that includes me. I just couldn't stand by and watch that low carb love in continue without another point of view being injected!

Actually, we all might have different definitions of what "low carb" means that I think should get clarified.

I think Ben is on to something. I don't think that we ever really defined what "low carb" is. I was assuming that when people say they are on a "low carb" diet that they are talking about a diet that is less than 40% carbs. If you are eating 40% quality carbs, getting a balance of fat and protein from good sources (.e. low in saturated fat), then you are actually doing what Beachbody recommends for weight loss. I wouldn't define what Ben is doing as "living a low carb lifestyle" at all. I'd call it a high protein kick start (short term) followed by a more balanced diet which is what Steve sometimes recommends.

I think Betsy brings up good points. Dr. Atkins has made a contribution and many people that go on the Atkins diet lose weight and improve and the medical community is listening. However, the medical community is not sold on a low carb, high saturated fat/protien diet I am certain of that. The issue I have with it is long term maintenance and studies show that people that are successful long term with weight loss don't eat low carb diets.

Betsy, I don't understand your equating agreeing with your opinion as acceptance and disagreeing with your opinion as rejection or critizing. Your user name implies you are a teacher. If so, you should understand the value of differing opinions being presented so people can make choices.

I think the debate is good and I'd like to hear more about Bens and Betsy's typical diet. We may be closer than we think.

Jim

PS This is one of my favorites:

Insanity is defined as doing the same things over and over and expecting different results.

I know how Betsy feels and felt when I first started reading the message board. I almost felt like I should not start P90 because that's what I was picking up from the advice that no we don’t believe in low carb eating so don’t do it. That’s how I felt. But when certain people are doing good with any diet or lifetime maintenance one should not say no we don’t agree with it. That discourages some people to just STOP. Especially when their doing good. I noticed that in some advice you said continue doing what you think is best but in others it sound like your Saying NO DON’T DO IT.

Just because you don’t believe in it, it doesn’t mean that it’s the wrong thing for others. If one is concerned about starting P90 along with Atkins, one should say to them beachbody does not promote a low-carb eating but their should always be a but theirs individuals that are doing both and it’s working for them. Give them both facts not just here’s this articles we don’t agree with this philosophy. Show them the threads and give them the chance to choose instead of them saying well I guess I won’t start P90 because low carb is working for me. That will be bad because with any diet we all agree that one needs one form of exercise routine. We all agree that P90 is great and we should all encourage everyone to do P90 no matter what diet their using it should not matter if their doing shakes, weight watchers or other programs as long as they get the results they want. That’s why we have doctors. Like any other program see your doctor and they will tell you if what your doing to your body is good for you or bad. Tell them exactly what your doing. My doctor knows I’m doing low-carb and that I was starting an exercise program. He told me to keep it up because of my great results and I’m going back in a few months after doing P90 to see if my results have also improved.

Theres room for everyone here we should encourage everyone not discourage them.

Keep pressing PLAY we know it works……
Ben

Ben,

Before I address the issue of support, I had to clear something up. Am I missing something? I just reread the earler posts talking about my eating 50 carbs a day. And then, there was more discussion about eating over 100 carbs a day. Then I thought, wait a minute, you must be talking about grams of carbs not percentage of total calories. It is common for me to eat 50% of my total calories from carbs (not junk food like cookies, crackers, sodas, chips, sugar etc. -- I mean high fiber carbs) I never counted grams, but I just figured out that if 45 to 60% of my total calories are from carbs (depending on the intensity of my workout and what I am trying to achieve) then I eat somewhere in the neighborhood of 350 grams of carbs a day and I am a small guy.

This is much worse than I originally thought. How on earth do people live on 20, 50 or 100 grams/day unless they are completely inactive? I honestly didn't know it was physically possible to sustain life long term never mind an active lifestyle on that. I obviously have more to learn!

Nobody is telling you what to do and what not to do. In fact, Steve, the fitness advisor told you that it would be best for you to continue down the path you are going. You should do what you think is best for you and follow your doctor's advice. If you want support in doing the exercise programs, ideas to help stay motivated, one-on-one daily support, a coach (private email or message boards), a shoulder to cry on, a buddy to do the program with, advice from experts on sound nutition, or anything like that, you can be sure you will get it on these boards. However, you can't expect that those of us that believe that a diet that is low in carbohydrates (the preferred fuel for intense exercise) and high in saturated fat (proven to increase risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer) as a viable option.

I believe that the below post (with scientific references) represents the more widely held position on low carb diets by the medical, healthcare and fitness community. More study is being done and until legitmate studies prove otherwise, most will not recommend it as a viable option for long term weight maintenance.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/lcd.html

Very well put, Jim.

I'd like to add that I've said the same thing Steve said several times on this thread. To quote my last post:

"I want you to do what you want to do. It's your body. I say that all the time. But when you espouse it to the Beachbody community, we're going to challenge you. I'm here to give people advice and I cannot give advice I do not believe in."

And here's a quote from my fellow Frenchman Voltaire that I think we should all keep in mind, in the spirit of healthy debate. "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."

Now, let's get back to business. The brown rice and whole grain bread is on me!

Ben,

Before I address the issue of support, I had to clear something up. Am I missing something? I just reread the earler posts talking about my eating 50 carbs a day. And then, there was more discussion about eating over 100 carbs a day. Then I thought, wait a minute, you must be talking about grams of carbs not percentage of total calories. It is common for me to eat 50% of my total calories from carbs (not junk food like cookies, crackers, sodas, chips, sugar etc. -- I mean high fiber carbs) I never counted grams, but I just figured out that if 45 to 60% of my total calories are from carbs (depending on the intensity of my workout and what I am trying to achieve) then I eat somewhere in the neighborhood of 350 grams of carbs a day and I am a small guy.

This is much worse than I originally thought. How on earth do people live on 20, 50 or 100 grams/day unless they are completely inactive? I honestly didn't know it was physically possible to sustain life long term never mind an active lifestyle on that. I obviously have more to learn!

Nobody is telling you what to do and what not to do. In fact, Steve, the fitness advisor told you that it would be best for you to continue down the path you are going. You should do what you think is best for you and follow your doctor's advice. If you want support in doing the exercise programs, ideas to help stay motivated, one-on-one daily support, a coach (private email or message boards), a shoulder to cry on, a buddy to do the program with, advice from experts on sound nutition, or anything like that, you can be sure you will get it on these boards. However, you can't expect that those of us that believe that a diet that is low in carbohydrates (the preferred fuel for intense exercise) and high in saturated fat (proven to increase risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer) as a viable option.

I believe that the below post (with scientific references) represents the more widely held position on low carb diets by the medical, healthcare and fitness community. More study is being done and until legitmate studies prove otherwise, most will not recommend it as a viable option for long term weight maintenance.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/lcd.html

Lemme add a couple more points:

First, our (well, it was just mine at first) point all along has been to eat a balanced healthy diet, and over the long run the Atkins diet isn't, which is why we always seem against it--for the LONGTERM. However, I've never said that this diet doesn't work. It has its place in the world. Nor is 40/30/30 a hardline stance we take. Indivduals all require something different based on many factors. 40/30/30 is the best starting point for the majority of the people, but majority surely isn't all.

Myself, I could not perform at my highest level at 40/30/30. I exercise too much and burn far too much blood glycogen. Depending on what I'm doing, my carb intake my approach 65-70%, but probably averages more like 55%. I will eat much less for short periods, like if I'm trying to shed body fat for some reason (which is generally 6-10%), or am not exercising much. I've had a few bouts with Atkins, but with my body fat this low I find myself completely out of energy in about 4 days. This is normal. If, say, Lance Armstrong went on Atkins today during the Tour, he'd be out of the yellow jersey tommorrow. The next day he'd be lucky to finish the stage. A third day of racing sans carbs and he would either pass out on his bike, or die--and this is no exaggeration. Under ketosis, your body (including your brain) can only function at a fraction of its maximal level. But most people can get through life just fine at a fractional level of their body's true potential.

But don't get this statement wrong, though Atkins won't allow your body to perform maximally, it certainly doesn't mean that your perform won't drastically improve. It may not be the best diet, but it certainly isn't the worst.

This brings me to your point about being "carb dependant," which would be more aptly named "junk dependant." This condition is not a real medical conditional, but rather a politically correct term meaning that your diet has been awful. Don't take this too personally, as I'd say the majority of American's have diets I'd term "awful". Sugar is probably the biggest reason for this. It's in so many things, from the obvious, to soda (biggest culprit) and candy, to the less obvious, like (supposedly healthy) items like breakfast cereal and non-fat goodies. Unless you are extremely active and pushing your body to its ultimate state where its running out of glycogen and needs replenishment that won't upset your stomach, you NEVER need simple sugar. When does this state occur? When you are doing something like a race. What percentages of people actually engage in things like races? A very small one, which also tends to be one that takes in "race foods" and eschews things like soda. So, you have one of the largest market shares in the world, consuming vast quantities of a product they don't need and actually does their lives a disservice. Soda companies are nothing but legal drug pushers, essentially, and in my mind no different than tobacco companies. Outside of the realm of sugar, thigs don't get much better. Weird manmade stuff like transfat makes up the bulk of many 'convenience foods' that we find at the corner 7/11. Unlike good fats that we need to exist and perform, these do nothing but clog our systems and slowly kill our bodies. Even options in the more healthy realm of this world the majority of Americans live in, like Subway, provide a marginal product (granted its far superior to 2 hot dogs and a soda for 99 cents at the am/pm). Still, Subway's ingredients appear healthy but are the cheapest of the cheap. An analysis of a sandwich from Subway vs. a sandwich you might make off of a farm in Switzerland using natural ingredients grown in rich soil would astoud you. But that's probably enough examples. Atkins, when compared to the above, is a big improvement! This is why people get great results. This is why it's a good diet for some people, great for others, yet terrible for others. It's not a sustainable diet for anyone's entire life because the levels of saturated fats are too high. However, you can still greatly lower your cholestorol during the short term, for factors I don't need to go into. But if you continue on your road to fitness, you will outgrow Atkins, for certain. We have this happen all the time. It's a nice natural progression. Atkins should be treated as a tool, not a lifestyle. And don't believe all the "studies" you might find on "lowcarb.com." These guys are in business, same as the soda and tobacco companies. If you find a study and want to validate it, search medline to see if it exists.

In my experience, which is fairly extensive, most "low carb" dieters tend to eat closer to 40% carbs--strange, but true. For this reason the first thing I'll ask someone I'm working with is to tell me what they eat. I've had people "eating less that 50 grams of carbs per day" actually be eating 40% of their cals from carbs! And this is the rule, rather than the exception, and another reason why Atkins works pretty well with people. Many have carb issues far beyond what they think. I can't tell you how many people have told me they "eat no carbs," while at a party drinking a beer! Even a low-carb beer has alcohol, with makes up over half its calories (at 7 cals per gram), and do you know how your body absorbs alcohol? Like a simple sugar. So in one Michelob Ultra you're getting, probably 15-20 extra grams of carbs than what you thought! Ditto for wine and hard alcohol.

Anyway, that's enough to consider for today. I think a lot has been covered here. The problem with many "low carbers" is they tend to act like a religious cult, thinking they've been saved by this diet and want to remain faithful. But it's just a diet, or a tool, to help you improve your life. And a diet isn't something that you need to be faithful to (no matter what people making money on it want you to belive). So you do it until it FEELS like you need to change and your change as necessary. It's working for you, and that's great, so you should keep on. But if you continue to get more and more fit, you'll hit a time when it won't--I guarantee you--and you just need to keep your mind open to the possibility of changing your diet. If you do this, you'll be fine.

I agree entirely with Steve (not only because he's my boss, but because he's right). However, I'd like to point out that Subway is still generally the healthier of many evils when it comes to fast food. If you're driving cross country, pull over for gas, need to eat and all you can find are a Subway and a McDonalds, Steve's tirade against Jared isn't license to hit the Golden Arches.

Thanks Steve,

I also agree with Steve, and his not my boss I am keeping an open mind and if it gets to the point where I need to adjust my diet I will. That's why I said that I did not have anything against other diets as long as it's working for someone and one learns to adjust.

I just wanted to make sure everyone gets a chance to use your product because it's great. People get discouraged very easily especially when doing something that’s working for them and they’ve tried almost everything else with many failures. I still hear a lot of people who say low-carb is no good because as soon as you stop doing it you gain all the weight back. Isn’t that the case with any diet. One tends to go back to their old eating habits of course your going to gain the weight back. It’s not magic it’s not going to vanish forever. That’s why (I think everyone here will agree to this I hope) they need to start some form of exercise program (I picked P90). Then one would adjust to it depending on each individual. If it’s not making you feel better and getting you better health results. Stop right away.

I used to get headaches almost every day. I used to get very tired at around 1pm and things would get very foggy. Very tired all the time. I used to drink a pot of coffee to try to wake up in the morning. That was just two months ago. For two months now I have not had one headache (I could actually throw away my headache medicine). At around 1pm I now get a burst of energy(has never happened before). Coffee, still love coffee but instead of drinking a whole pot I drink one black no sugar cup a day. More energy then I had in my 20’s. But there’s that but, I know am not in good physical condition. I have a hard time doing the push ups and my arms wow pain lots of pain when doing them. But I know that’s a good thing. It will get better. I do keep telling myself that Two months ago I probably wouldn’t have had the energy to do the exercises every day. Now I have more then enough energy. I just need the strenght to kick in.

I’ll see what the next few months bring me. This is what I hope happens. I want to be the healthiest I could be and be in top physical condition plus seeing a six pack on my abs would not be bad. Never had them looking forward to one day having them.

Thanks again Steve
Keep up the encouragement. It really helps.

Ben